L'Etat? It Isn't Toi

[Molly] While Molly made it a point to speak to Israel first (she wanted to get at least some of the emotional venting out of the way so that she could perhaps not inundate a likely-to-be-unimpressed-with-it Ashley with such things), she actually arranged the chat with Ashley before the one with Israel. She went over to Israel's in the morning after inviting Ashley to her place in the afternoon; a sensible time for a grad student with a heavy teaching load, she hopes. Awakened life and Sleeper life need to be kept in some kind of balance, after all.

All that to say that Molly's had a good cry and a cheering frolic with an intensely loving puppy, as well as time to prepare a hearty sort of meal for incoming guest, before Ashley arrives. Ashley is thus ushered into the repurposed auto repair shop to warmth and savoury smells. "Hey; thanks for coming. There's ... the website called it 'toad in the hole' but it's actually kind of sausage pie. It smells nice, anyway. Peach black, white or green with lemon?" She refers to tea in that last, of course - hospitality is to be dealt with before business talk begins. It's the way of things, at least for Molly.

Ashley's been here once before, recently, and it hasn't changed - still a riot of geeky and counterculture posters, the remarkable HabiTrail set-up for her ferrets along the walls and the ceiling, the mismatched comfy furniture, Ellie's Nook in the corner, the six computers humming on the customer service desk. Out of respect for Ashley's amusia, she switched off the Chemical Brothers about two minutes before Ashley was due to arrive, so it's quiet but for computer hum, skittering from the HabiTrail tubes on the walls and ceiling, and occasional jingling from the playpen in the corner as one or both ferrets abandon their tunnels and go for the toys.

"So what's new?"

[Ashley] It was a late night and it's been an early morning; both of her classes are Tuesday/Thursdays, and she's been up at Northwestern's campus for the better part of the day. The smells of dinner are quite welcome in that regard.

Ashley, too, spoke with Israel. A call came from the Orphan earlier today, and so Ashley is already a little prepared for what Molly is going to speak with her about. This, all told, is probably a good thing. Ashley had time to get her gut reaction out of the way, and is thus a little more inclined to be reasonable, or at least a little more inclined to speak to Molly in a manner less driven by emotion.

She was a little disconcerted by the HabiTrail last time, too. Perhaps it's because the things snake all over the walls and ceiling and she can't ever tell quite how far away they are, but either way, her gaze keeps darting in their direction as though she's expecting one to crack apart and a ferret to come falling from above at any second. "I've had toad in the hole. I like it," she tells Molly. "And green with lemon, please."

Her stomach is already growling. Her eyes find Molly after another few moments of wandering along the brightly colored trails, and she says, "I'm supposed to meet with Nora tonight. Other than that...you know, life."

[Molly] "Nora's a good one to talk to, from what little I remember. Observant." Normally, Molly would be moving to the kitchen already to start serving things and steeping tea, but that might give Ashley problems, so she stays where she is, where she know Ashley can hear her reasonably well. "Level-headed, too, considering her background. I'd be more like Anya if my history was more like that." Short pause for thought as she considers her family, how she was then, and her face hardens in a way that few people have actually seen (and Ashley likely doesn't recognise). "Actually ... scratch that. No I wouldn't. I'll just plate up the kind-of-sausage-pie ... no one knows exactly why they call it that; Google has failed me and it's depressing ... if you want to take a seat at the dining table?" The little glass table with the three cushy dining chairs has one advantage over the rest of the seating arrangements of the main living area - no HabiTrail tubes overhead.

Molly makes three trips from kitchen to table before saying anything else - one with two plates of 'kind-of-sausage-pie', one with a gravy boat and a very pretty china teacup, which she sets in front of Ashley, and one with a pretty round glass teapot and a mug that reads 'I Prepared Explosive Runes This Morning'. "Yeah, I know life," she says as she finally sits down and pours tea. "It has its ups and downs. Okay, I'm not going to beat around the bush here. I talked to Ben the Fugitive Technocrat - which would kind of be an awesome title for a series of children's books on the brown acid, but that's beside the point - and Israel gave me the lecture on why I shouldn't have gone alone and I have taken it to heart, thank you. So I guess the first thing I'd ask is ... well, two questions. One - is it okay if we sidestep the lecture that I've already had and learned from because the resulting argument will probably just piss us both off? And two - assuming the answer to question one is 'yes', how much do you already know, and how much of it do you want directly from me as confirmation anyway? 'Cos it occurs to me that because Israel was worried and heard about the possibility of my going to find this guy from you, she might have already called you to let you know things. Though maybe not, since Emily called me earlier asking if she could help. Guess she didn't know."

[Ashley] "I like her," Ashley says of her soon-to-be-Traditionmate. She rather wishes she and Nora had met under different circumstances, all told, but things will be what they will be. Conflict is what drives life. "It was a productive conversation." Backgrounds, well, she doesn't have much to offer up on that front; Ashley can't imagine what she would have been like if she'd been Anya. Or if she'd been Nora.

She seats herself at the table, and when Molly sets the little teacup down in front of her she picks it up to examine it, running her fingertips over the smooth surface. And then she offers it up so that Molly can pour the tea into it. "It at least has more ups than downs at the moment, which I suppose is an improvement," Ashley offers. And then quiets so that she can listen to what Molly is saying, her eyes drifting up toward the Cultist.

"Israel already told me you went to speak to the Technocrat," Ashley says, after a pause. Not Ben. The Technocrat. She bites the inside of her cheek. Her voice is level. "I'm not happy about it. I will be unhappy about it for some time. But if Israel's already talked to you about it, we can leave it." She wraps her hand around the teacup once Molly is done filling it, mostly to feel the heat. It's too hot to sip at, yet. "Israel didn't tell me anything other than that you'd been to talk to the Technocrat, though."

[Molly] "Then there's a lot you don't know - a lot that you're probably going to want to confirm for yourself, if he's agreeable. And I think he will be." They've left that Ashley is unhappy, which is fine by Molly. Molly understands, at least in part, why Ashley is unhappy. Whether she agrees with it or not, she understands. Thus it's safe to move on. "He trusts me. More than I trust him, to be honest. Still, at this point, I don't know who to trust. One thing's for sure - if I trust anybody in this, it sure as hell isn't the Rogue freakin' Council."

She dumps gravy on her toad in the hole and lays it out for Ashley as clinically as she can. "The information the Four Horseman have, according to ... 'the Technocrat'--" (she thinks that this man deserves a name at least, but she's going by Ashley's terms here) "--was doctored. First point they left out was that the Awakened undergoing this mini-Gilgul thing were volunteers, or at least they were believed to be so, and the Technocrat has the means to check that for himself. Apparently they didn't have control of themselves. They were causing accidents. They went to the Progenitors for help. The Technocrat and his research team provided it the only way they knew how. So either that part is true or the Progenitor high-ups lied to the research team and somehow bent the so-called 'test subjects' so badly brain-wise that they believed whatever they were made to believe, with such skill that someone skilled in Mind couldn't tell anything had been done. Either's possible."

She picks up her mug of tea and blows on it to cool it a little. "Point two - they did not kill the victims of that drug when the brain damage was discovered. They had no intention of doing so. I don't know whether they were going to try to heal that damage, to be honest - I'm not sure they knew what they were going to do next. They just never got the chance. The Four Horsemen, whether they know it or not, killed those Awakened when they blew up the Progenitor research facility. I don't know how much difference that makes in the long run, or whether it speaks worse of the Horsemen or the Rogue Council who fooled them into blowing the place up thinking that only Technocrats were alive inside. Not even sure if it matters." Though it doesn't take a modicum of empathy to see that it matters to Molly. She's just talking about 'grand scheme of things' when she talks about it mattering.

She puts down her tea, untouched, and sighs. "Point three ... he regrets what he did. He's still convinced that he was doing the right thing in trying to help those people, and he was - his methods were faulty, but they were the only ones he knew. He's willing to cooperate with us as much as he can because he'd rather not die. I'm willing to give him a chance - not only to confirm what he's saying in the face of a Mind mage more powerful than I am, but ... to redeem himself. Not just because I'm some bleeding heart, but because it's useful in a pragmatic sort of way. He has information that could be useful; if not now, then later. A look into Technocrat paradigm and psychology would be advantageous. Also, it's a blow to the Technocracy in at least a limited way, having a defector of theirs on our side. Plus ... I don't know if I like this Rogue Council, y'know. They're hypocrites, talking about shedding dogma and yet recruiting and issuing orders in the most dogmatic way possible. I think they need a reminder that their ultimate goals can be carried out by more than just outright military coup, and the old one about 'do I not destroy my enemies if I make friends of them?'. I don't want to end up the cat's paw of some organisation that I've never met when I don't know their motives."

[Ashley] It's a lot of information to take in and respond to. Ashley doesn't interrupt Molly while the Cultist speaks; she pours some of the gravy over her own plate, glancing up out of the corner of her eye toward Molly now and again. "I don't believe for a minute that most of those people were volunteers," Ashley says, with a shake of her head. "I'm willing to believe that maybe he thought they were, or had fooled himself into thinking they were so it was okay for him to do it. Either way, that doesn't make his research okay. Even if by some chance those people had been volunteers, you know the research would've been used to force the drug on the rest of us. He had to know that too."

Perhaps Ben is a man with a kind heart, who wants to help the reality deviants suppress their abilities and find peace. If he is, Ashley doesn't seem to think any differently of that than she would if he regarded them as dangerous monsters to be put down. It's really all the same, to her, no matter what he calls it. "To be clear, I don't particularly trust the Rogue Council either. Whatever I decide to do, it won't be for them."

And then some thought while she turns over the rest, still holding her cup. She hasn't yet touched the food. "If he's cooperating with us because he'd rather not die, there's a good chance he's cooperating with us until he can find a way back in, at which point he'll fuck us all over. Desperate and helpless people are the most untrustworthy. As for his information, fuck it. I can pull whatever I want from his head, regardless of whether he's willing to give it." Ashley takes a careful sip of her tea, and there's a brief pause. "That said, I kind of like the idea of being able to bring him over. I'm just not sure it's worth it, or the trouble it would cause with the Horsemen. If we hand him over, they'll move on. If we don't, there's going to be a lot of trouble we don't need with the Technocracy breathing down our necks."

[Molly] Molly shakes her head. "I never said it was okay. I told him to his face that it wasn't okay, and that I didn't condone it. But that's kind of the point - he doesn't know what's right. He's been taught all stupid. What's more, he knows he's been taught all stupid. He's clinging to the fact that he was trying to help because it's the only way he can cope with what he did. Was ordered to do. Whatever. Fact is that he regrets it. More than even he realises, he regrets it. Between that and everything else, I don't think it'd be hard to bring him over."

Short pause while she takes a bite of her dinner, and then she continues. "Particularly given that ... look, I went defended when I tracked him down, but I went in with more than shields and resonance masking. I did what his former associates have decided that they can't be bothered, with all their resources, to do - I helped him. Not in any huge way, nothing that compromises anybody; I brought him food. I figured it'd make a good peace offering, at least, but also I knew he hadn't been eating. Yes, he could be playing me, but given what I've seen, I don't think he is - I think he trusts me. But you'd be the one to confirm that, if you're willing. He said he'd cooperate so I don't think a validation of what he's saying from someone who can read his mind like an issue of PC Now is too much to ask. But I'd like to be along when you do, if that's okay. Just because I'm the only one who knows where he is right now and I don't want to panic him by sending him an unknown person without someone he knows along with him. Just in case he's on the level. And if he's not on the level?" She shrugs. "Well, then I'd like to know immediately so I can put the boot into the lying sonuvabitch as soon as possible."

[Ashley] "If he's been taught 'all stupid,'" Ashley uses Molly's words a touch dryly, "then he's either weak-willed for allowing them to impress those views upon him or he's weak-willed for abandoning everything he knows just because of his circumstances. I'm not sure I can trust a man like that either, if his conviction doesn't count for shit."

She forks up a small bit of the food on her plate, considering it a moment before taking a bite. There's a quiet moment while she chews, though it's obvious that her mind is still working, that she's still thinking through how she feels about it and what she thinks the best thing to do would be. It's not that she isn't conflicted, to some extent - it's that from her perspective there are few choices she can make.

"You can come with me when I question him," she says. "But I'll warn you. I don't see a lot of reasons we should help him right now, even if he is on the level."

[Molly] Molly rolls her eyes. "His conviction counts for shit or he'd have just outright agreed with me instead of listening to the verbal bitch-slap and then still asserting that he was trying to help while his eyes telegraphed remorse, regret and a desperation to find another way like a lighthouse beacon. And if you still call that 'his conviction doesn't count for shit', maybe it's because he's finally seen that the thing in which he was taught to have conviction was a massive pile of bullshit all along. Like how Nathan felt about the Cult."

She gives her plate of food a vicious little stab with her fork. "He's going to be conflicted; we can help decide whether he's in conflict with them or with us. You may not see a lot of reasons we should help him. I do. That might change. But I'll warn you, since warnings are happening. If you don't want to help him, that's your decision and I wouldn't force you. But you are not responsible for what my conscience bids me to do and if you don't show me a reason not to help him that I can get behind, I will try to help him. Even if it's only getting him out of the city, I believe that he deserves a chance, and unless I get proof that he doesn't deserve that chance, I won't let some group of misinformed zealots guided by some shadow players from beyond wherever take away the chance to strike even the tiniest blow against the Technocracy that doesn't result in yet more death."

[Ashley] "He's finally seen the error of his ways just in time to take advantage of a lot of people who are willing to stick their necks out to save his ass," Ashley says. "Convenient, isn't it. It's nothing like how Nathan felt about the Cult. That decision was made freely, without his survival in mind. It's not that I don't believe people don't change their beliefs or that beliefs don't adapt. It's that I'm suspicious of anyone who suddenly claims to see the light because he's afraid to be alone. This isn't an enlightened intellectual decision on his part, it's cowardice."

They're harsh words, though at least they probably aren't hypocritical; it isn't difficult to believe that Ashley herself would probably die before doing what Ben is doing. Many Awakened become zealots in their own way.

"I'm not responsible for some Technocrat. I am responsible for the things that I've chosen to protect in this city. If what you decide to do endangers any of that, we're going to have problems." It could be a threat, but threat doesn't carry in her tone; it's just a statement.

[Molly] That gets another raised eyebrow. "See, we don't actually know the truth about that, and now we never will, and neither will he. 'Cos, y'see, we now have no way of knowing whether, if the Four Horsemen hadn't been sent after his research team like a guided missile, he would have struggled through seeing the error of his ways on his own anyway. We can't know that because of how it panned out - eye-ee the Rogue Council sending information at a time that ... is kind of suspect anyway, isn't it? Hell, from what we've seen of them, they've got connections and they get information pretty quickly. So if they knew this was going on - that this project was running? Don't you think they would have heard about it while their stupid drug was still in animal testing? They did extensive studies on rats first. Why not send someone after this team and nip it in the bud before anyone died? Anyway, not really the point, but it's a thought to consider. To summarise, you can distrust him if you want to - I don't blame you one bit, because I'm not as trusting as I sound either - but at least don't call bullshit and cowardice when neither you nor anyone else can know whether he'd have seen the error of his ways and tried to turn it back if the Four Horsemen hadn't been sent to hunt his ass down." Then she blinks and adds, "And also, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said he'd suddenly claimed to see the light. I said, repeatedly, that he is clinging to the belief that he was trying to help but that his emotional reactions indicate that his conviction has been shaken as regards whether what he was doing was actually helping or not. Not a moment of scales being smacked from his eyes, which would be suspect, but a crisis of faith - and crisis of a really stupid, Westboro Baptist Church-ish faith at that. If you want to look at it as exploiting a weakness in an enemy, go for it. Because that's closer to what it is than 'ooh, I'm conveniently beating myself up over the mental crippling of people I believe were coming to me for help'."

The rest gets a sigh. "Yeah, I know. Security trumps all. Whatever." After closing her eyes for a moment, she adds, "Sorry; I didn't mean that to be dismissive of the need for security. I do understand it. I'm willing to go along with it as far as I can without just outright tossing him to the Horsemen like throwing a chew-toy to a dog if he doesn't actually deserve that kind of treatment. I'll try to talk to the Horsemen if he comes up clean, whether you think he deserves help or not. Because, frankly, you don't actually seem to believe that anyone deserves help; that if they can't manage without help, they don't deserve to manage at all. You're, like, the ultimate Darwinian. I tend to think we've evolved past that, but that's a difference of opinion that we'll leave for a less ... security-consciousness-necessitating time. If the Horsemen won't listen to me - which they probably won't, but a girl can hope - I'll get him out of the city. So at least if the Horsemen are going to make a big ruckus about no one just bending over backwards to let them carry out their 'mission from God' or whatever, they'll do it somewhere else."

[Ashley] "I'm calling it as I see it. There's a lot I can't know at any time. That doesn't change what it looks like to me now. Which is bullshit and cowardice. If something new comes up to change my mind, I'll revise my opinion then." Blunt, as usual, and said after she's had a moment to sip at the drink, as though this were a casual conversation.

There's a look up at Molly as she voices her impressions of Ashley. The Hermetic says, "It's not a matter of what anybody deserves. There are people I help when I want to help them, but I refuse to be obligated to help someone. Helping people in most cases does them a disservice. You're depriving them of the chance to learn to cope for themselves, because there are going to be a lot of times when everything they think they can rely on deserts them. And most people who claim altruism are just doing it so they can feel good about themselves."

A beat, and she moves past that retort. "This isn't about security. This is about my priorities and where they are, and Ben falls pretty fucking low on my list. Nora didn't really sound like she thought Anya would be willing to talk. This is pretty personal for them, I guess."

[Molly] The first bit only gets a nod. There's little more she can say to that. Molly can only hope and believe that Ashley will see something beyond bullshit and cowardice. (Of course, it's far more likely that a vicious pack of chinchillas will rise up from the local pet shop and eat the entirety of Mag Mile, but all the same, Molly's hope, belief and confidence - like the rest of her - is a frantic thing, and difficult to outright kill. It's like trying to herd amphetamine-raddled cats.)

The retort does actually get a reply, however. "I think I'd rather depriving them the chance to learn to starve, freeze and be hunted for a little while if it means not depriving them of the chance to learn that perhaps the reason that everyone they think they can rely on deserts them is that the people they thought they could rely on aren't worth shit. As to your thoughts on altruism ... yeah. That's your deal and you're entitled to your opinion. But let me just say for the record that I'm not in it for the warm fuzzies; my altruism in this case as in all others is about my Tradition's values. We've got a tenet in the Code about how one of us shall account for his or her deeds. I'll spare you the quote but it's kind of like the Threefold Rule the Sleeper Wiccans sometimes spout. So your priorities are where they are, and I accept that. I don't oblige you personally to help. But my priorities are where my Trad values and my convictions lie. Unless he's bullshitting, I'll help him as much as I can without obligating anyone who doesn't want to be obligated. If he's bullshitting ... I'll offer his head to the Horsemen myself."

Then she shrugs. "If it comes to the talk - if he's not bullshitting - then I was thinking of talking to Gabriel. Zealous, yes, but I think I know the tack to take with him."

[Ashley] "If you keep him here, you are obligating me personally to help," Ashley says. "Either because the Horsemen will start shit here, or because the Technocracy is going to come looking for him eventually. This isn't a decision that only affects you, and if you think that, you're being naive. I'll hold out and see what happens, but you don't get to just do whatever you want because it's what your Tradition tells you to do."

She lets that sit for just a second before shaking her head. "Gabriel might listen, but if anyone talks to Gabriel, if we decide to do something, I think it should be Emily. He seemed to relate to her, from what she was telling me."

[Molly] Molly leans back in her chair and looks at Ashley, quite perplexed. "Sorry. My memory's really good, so I'm going to ask whether you heard me say that if they don't listen, I'll get him out of the city. Because I know that keeping him here if no one sees any kind of reason is asking for trouble for all of us, because no, I'm not naive. And if Emily's going to speak to him, fine. I'll ask her if I can be backup, since I'm talking to her about all this the minute she has spare time anyway. Because if I'm right - and I have no reason yet to believe that I'm wrong - then I've seen a side of him that you don't actually want to see, and I'd like to be sure that all angles are covered. Including the ones that you don't seem to think should be looked at, even for a second, through a telescope, as anything but a convenient ruse to fuck us all over."

She sips her tea and adds, "Incidentally, I'm aware that I don't get to just do whatever I want because it's what my Tradition tells me to. But by the same token, you don't get to just tell me to ignore my Tradition values when they don't focus on something that you consider to be low on your personal priority list. But so far, what you're proposing sounds reasonable. Not what I'd have preferred, but reasonable. Now," she adds with a bit of a rueful smirk, "would probably be a really bad time to ask you to keep an open mind, and at least not try to scare him too badly until you know he deserves it?"

[Ashley] "I heard you," Ashley says. "But I'm not too inclined to take you at your word about anything, just now, since apparently if things aren't done the way you want them you'll go behind my back to do them anyway, regardless of who or what you put in danger. Even if you do send him somewhere else, there's a good chance they'd come through here trailing him."

A beat. "My mind is as open as it needs to be. This isn't about what he deserves, but I've said that." She shrugs, then, takes a last bite, and downs the rest of what's in her cup.

"On the subject of going behind my back, if you do anything like that ever again, I don't fucking care who you've talked to or whether you think you've learned a lesson, there'll be consequences other than losing my trust and esteem. You'd better wait for Emily this time."

[Molly] Molly takes a deep breath at that one. It's fighting down temper. "I did not 'go behind your back', because you did not tell me to do anything. What you did was make a suggestion. I said it sounded like a good one but that we were dealing with a time-sensitive situation. Next time you want me to do something a specific way, with specific people? Ask me outright. Then at least we'll know where we stand and I'll be able to do the legwork of making sure the other people you want involved are in on it so that a time-sensitive situation doesn't either have to be acted on in a way that you don't like or just go by the wayside because it's not a priority for you."

[Ashley] "I don't think you realize how complicated this shit gets for me, or how many people I talk to," Ashley says. She, too, seems to be fighting back temper; her voice has leveled, which is always a sign. It gets too steady. "You talked to neither Kage nor Emily before you went. Or anyone else, from what I've heard. That's the problem, and that is what makes me think you went behind my back. If you'd even bothered to talk to anyone else or get any kind of help or let anyone including me know what you were doing, I would feel very differently about it. Don't try to pin the responsibility for your actions on me. You fucked up. You accept the consequences."

[Molly] "No, I don't know exactly how complicated this shit gets for you, but I know about shit getting complicated. I own my shit. I should have done it differently. I should have called someone. But I'm not going to explain my reasons because I know you couldn't possibly care less, and I'm also not going to let you turn it into something personal when it isn't." Ashley's fighting back temper, and Molly really doesn't care. "I did a stupid thing. I got lucky, and recognise that I might not if I ever do it again. So I won't do it again. But it was never about going behind your back, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to own that the way I own the risk I could have caused the community. Because it's frankly not about you. L'etat? It isn't toi, administrative dean or not."

[Ashley] "I don't care what your intentions were, or if you were trying to flaunt what I told you to do. You did. I'm telling you not to do it again, and from now on I'll be more explicit with what I want from you, since suggestions really have gotten me nowhere." Regardless of whether Molly feels it's personal, it's clear that for Ashley it is; she's incapable of the separation, unable to distinguish between challenges to her Will and a decision someone else made independently that caused it to come in to conflict with her own. For her it's all one and the same.

"I'll be in contact shortly to talk to Ben. You talk to me before you take any other action." Beat. "Thanks for dinner."

And then in short order she's gone.